Curse

Xr Cuun · Jun 16, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

No more Actual FoW/UW/GvG builds that people made themseles
Now GvG parties are pretty much set as the exact same thing
And FoW and UW are now always FoWsc whatever the hell that means
Really took the fun straight out of the game
Heros are alright i guess just the game itself has died...

cellardweller · Jun 16, 2009, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Used 6 henchmen before nightfall and 6 heroes after. Made no difference to how much I grouped, just how fast I got the job done.

snaek · Jun 16, 2009, 06:16 AM // 06:16

pve
fact: heroes turned guild wars into a single player game
opinion: this is either good or bad depending on what type of gamer you are

pvp
fact: heroes do not belong in pvp
opinion: too bad, your not allowed to have an opinion on this matter

Rivenheart · Jun 16, 2009, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

In PvE the reasons are less obvious because we have so many people abusing heroes who don't care anymore. Let me put it this way...the peak of Guild Wars is when the game was all about teamwork, strategy, and guilds. Heroes are not only counteractive to all 3 of those, but they completely destroy any semblance of all 3 of those in this game anymore. None of those 3 are required anymore due to heroes existence.

Heroes didn't kill Teamwork, human ego did. If people were more friendly and willing to help, and not shout orders to others and be demanding and go afk, etc., we wouldn't be having this conversation because the problem would resolve itself. People would rather group with friendly, competent people (that's why we have guilds and friends lists) rather than AI minions.

Really, heroes killed Strategy? I would blame the wiki'd builds, and of course Anet for allowing gimmick builds to exist in the first place. A lot of this is due in part to PVE Skills that are overpowered and take a lot of thinking out of the game. Do (prenerf) Ursan, Discord Spam and Cryway teams make the game easier? Yes. But it doesn't make the game fun. If Anet was smart they wouldn't have included overpowered offensive skills in PVE. If people want to sit in front of a screen drooling and mindlessly clicking buttons, they can go watch tv. Keep people thinking and they'll enjoy the game, otherwise they will get bored and go do something else.

Heroes have little to do with Guilds in PVE. If yo have a guild that doesn't help each other out with missions or such, that's a problem with you and your guildmates, not heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Let me explain myself further...Guild Wars used to be a multiplayer team strategy game where players teamed up to tackle areas together. Pugs were a part of this, and guilds a major part. This was the height of the game. Heroes turned the game into a single player RPG/grindfest that can barely be labeled an MMO anymore. It is a single player RPG...and if I want a single player RPG I can buy one of those anywhere. I preferred Guild Wars when it was more unique and different.

The whole point of having henchmen or heroes was that you had the option of going it alone. Removing them forces players to group together, like most MMO games out there. Although that brings up the point that the creators of Guild Wars were decided in that their game was Not an MMO. There were supposed to be differences, one of with was being able to play the game alone if you desired. As for grind, for the most part it is optional. A lot of the grinding done is for access to specific sets of armor (which have no benefit over standard sets), to enhance PVE skills or to gain titles, which if you removed would lead to a lot more bored people in-game who would probably just leave, as many people have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

So while you may argue that Guild Wars isn't dead, it is clear that Guild Wars AS A MULTIPLAYER GAME is dead and heroes were the biggest factor in this. And if Guild Wars as a multiplayer game is dead, that means Guild Wars as a whole is dead to me, because I know of much better single player options. The multiplayer was what made Guild Wars unique and awesome.

Nothing lasts. Of course Guild Wars will die, but it will die much more quickly from lack of new content or dated graphics than any addition of heroes. Many people who were here for the beginning of Guild Wars have moved on, but people do that with any game that have been around for a while. And people will not be flocking in to the game as when the new campaigns were sill being released because there are much more new options out there. Regardless on how you feel about Prophesies, the cycle of time has relegated it to the bargain bin. It is an old game and the whole series will soon follow. At the end of the summer, Eye of the North will be two years old, and considering that was a short expansion rather than full campaign, its not surprising to see the numbers in Guild Wars dwindle. If you add to this how tight lipped Anet has been about Guild Wars 2 (three pieces of concept art, really?), the number of active player will continue to fall. Guild wars is slowly dying as one could reasonably expect from a product in its position, but it was most certainly not killed by Heroes.

zwei2stein · Jun 16, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Tack on how insta-fail most missions are. Rurik dies? Start over. Party whipes? No res shrines, start from the beginning. Losing can be a pretty discouraging thing in Guild Wars, just one of many things making playing with PUGs all the more uninviting.

Edit, after post below: hm, I never really thought about how easy it is to be and *saty* bad at this game...

That was fixed in GWEN: Gwen missions have res shrines and self-ressing NPCs and are blast to PUG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The fundamental problem with PUGs is not heroes, but rather the fact that a-net made a game which it's very easy to be bad at, and very easy not to know you're bad at it.

Q for freaking T.

Its way too easy to rely on henchmen or other players to get pulled through game and get illusion of being 'good'. Pretty much anyone can browse their screenshot folder to get sample how bad they were while thinking they did great.

Shame there is no scoreboard after mission.

Bryant Again · Jun 16, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

That was fixed in GWEN...

But not with anything else, meaning it's still a big problem.

Daesu · Jun 16, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

You dont need to play with PUGs if you dont want to, you can always try to find a good guild. My guild's calendar is jam packed with events every day of the week, so excuse me if I cant relate to the "multi-player is dead" or "the game falling apart" chicken little syndrome.

I think those people who feel this way QQ alot about not finding a party, instead of doing something about it, they blame heroes because it is convenient to do so. Instead of lifting a finger to help themselves find an active guild in this game, they QQ about this and that. A good guild is really not that hard to find if you network with other active players in this forum.

Stop dwelling in self-pity, people. Lift your lazy asses and do something about it.

Hyper.nl · Jun 16, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Q: How did Heroes kill Guild Wars?
A: They didn't.

shinyglove · Jun 16, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

heroes are the best thing in the game, i don't like playing with newbs and ''pros'' for both of them can get you angry

Shadowspawn X · Jun 16, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

That was fixed in GWEN: Gwen missions have res shrines and self-ressing NPCs and are blast to PUG.

There are no missions at all in GWEN.The dungeons and semi-epic quests have rez shrines because they are explorable areas.

faraaz · Jun 16, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

People are stupid. People on the internet are doubly stupid. Heros allow you to bypass that. If people want to argue the whole "Heros made it so you dont have to pug anymore" I can assure you, there are people who use Henchmen & went through PvE before Heros came out...kinda why Anet made heros in the first place.

Regardless, the people complaining about heros killing pugging are the ones who need other people to get through the game...i.e, bad players.

Ignore them.

/flamesuiton

Raiku · Jun 16, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archress Shayleigh

people don't group

You mean people aren't competent enough to play better than a hero?

MrTickle · Jun 16, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

There is logic, but that's not why group play in GW is dead.

Want to know why people who know better avoid playing with others at all costs?

/report

That's why. This simple feature allowed carebears to rule guild wars entirely, getting anyone who says a word to their dismay or anything remotely "risque" banned. After you get banned for absolute senseless bullshit you learn better than to let filthy carebears anywhere near you.

Cause, i mean, i used to play with people cause it was fun. Even though heroes were more efficient, i used to enjoy playing with other players just because it was social and fun. After i learned being social isn't allowed because of overly sensitive children or middle-aged people with children, now i just stick to heroes. Cause even if i would choose to play with people i wouldn't be able to talk in fear i might say something super offensive like "what the hell?" and get banned.

That's why, people.

QFT.

The ONLY other people I play with are guild m8's who i know personally. If they mess around with only being aloud 1 hero per player I too would leave the game. Heros don't leave half way through a vanquish! if the other player has connection problems at least you still have 7 in your team.

YunSooJin · Jun 16, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The fundamental problem with PUGs is not heroes, but rather the fact that a-net made a game which it's very easy to be bad at, and very easy not to know you're bad at it.

GW presents players with an unprecedented number of build possibilities -- literally millions of skill/attribute combination -- but all of them save a few dozen are awful. No other game of the sort has such a low ratio of good build possibilities to bad ones. And no other game makes it so hard for people who don't put tremendous though into it to stumble upon something good. It should be any surprise that most people are running terrible builds.

Add to this the fact that it's very hard to get reliable feedback on how good you actually are. Most missions/quests are "pass/fail." Unless you're racking up huge DP, it's hard to tell that you're doing a bad job so long as you finish the mission/quest. The timers in Factions give a little bit more feedback. But that brings us to the other half of the problem: Human psychology tends to take credit for what goes well and shift blame for what does not. The fact that all of GW is done in teams exacerbates this problem. If the mission goes well, it's because you did a good job; if it goes poorly, blame the monk.

The net result is that GW is full of bad players -- worse than the henchmen (who are really pretty bad themselves) -- and that's why people avoid PUGs like the plague.

somebody give this guy a medal, for the love of god

I think it needs to also be said that the average player is not exactly a wellspring of intelligence. Not really suggesting that players should be able to come up with the best builds on their own, but the morons of GW can't tell a good build from a bad one. Probably not even equipped to do the basic calculations that allow them to differentiate.

Four years later, we still have monks using orison and healing breeze. Power attack. Power shot. Aura of restoration. Flare. Really? (Remember that thread with that moron complaining about how people dissed his bar, proceeded to share it with us, and got his build raped again, except to a wider audience? yeah.)

Lagg · Jun 16, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

I heard you on Ventrilo back in Prophecies.
Lying awake intent at teaming up with you,
If I was noob it didn't stop us coming through.

Oh-a oh

They took the ecto for your second fissure set.
Rewritten farming code and new technology,
and now I understand the nerfs that you can see.

Oh-a oh

I met your minipets

Oh-a oh

What did you tell them?

Hero Monks killed the Pick-up Group Star.
Hero Monks killed the Pick-up Group Star.
Hero Monks killed the Pick-up Group Star.

Anet came and broke your heart.

Oh-a-a-a oh

(if it wasn't painfully obvious already: to the tune of "Video Killed the Radio Star")

snaek · Jun 17, 2009, 12:50 AM // 00:50

i'm sorry, but saying that the problem of pugs is that players are bad is highly cynical.

why do competitive communities strive? because they have each other to get better. the same basic concept can apply to pve. to a degree, it still does exist--but in a lesser form of wiki/pvx/forums. however, this cannot compare to the amount one can learn by interaction with other people.

when a player makes a mistake in a pug, generally other people will call him out on it. he'll be able to learn from his mistake more effectively. sure you can say that if they're being asses about it, it will just cause people to rage; but this is not a flaw of the pug system, rather a flaw of people just being asses. if someone uses heroes, he has no one but himself to improve to get better. this can definitely work, however much harder to achieve.

Bryant Again · Jun 17, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

The problem isn't in players being bad, it's just that it's really easy to be bad at the game and really hard to gain feedback and/or learn how to get better.

snaek · Jun 17, 2009, 01:10 AM // 01:10

that is completely irrelevant.

if the game is hard, that doesn't prevent people from pugging, that prevents people from playing. period.

i was explaining that a strong community provides feedback and means to get better. you take out pugging, you break down that community.

Daesu · Jun 17, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i was explaining that a strong community provides feedback and means to get better. you take out pugging, you break down that community.

The underlying assumption to that is, someone from the team would be able to provide good and valid feedback to the failed player(s) who would receive the feedback gladly. Often, some people would just rage quit and the team simply dissolves. No feedback and no lessons learnt.

byteme! · Jun 17, 2009, 01:30 AM // 01:30

PvXwiki needs to DIE! You got people from all over copy pasting templates bypassing the need to learn and understand the game. People load skill bars without having the slightest clue why or how it is used. There is a reason why people are bad at the game. There is a reason why certain individuals will never be good at this game. We need to stop handing things to people on a silver platter and instead make them work for it. Make them go through the trouble of knowing and understanding skill sets so in the future they can make their own builds. 90% of the people who say they are "PRO" in-game are a bunch of wannabes who just copied someone else's work, ran the build a couple times to be sure and "poof" they now are self proclaimed professionals. Ya I've seen the type and I'm not impressed. Besides PvXwiki and everything in it is written by regular players like myself. The problem with that is you could literally write anything you wanted in wiki and people will believe you. People get the false impression the best of the best is listed in wiki. If it ain't there it ain't good enough. Again people don't have a clue why or how but just because wiki says so. EPIC FAIL.

Player A or wiki = Here's a skill bar, it works so use it.

Player B = OK, tries build, fails miserably and doesn't know why.

@OP - Heroes did not kill PuGs. Not even close.

P.S. People still use Healing Breeze. I mean seriously. Is it that hard to do simple elementary math to figure out +9 regen (18hp per sec) at the cost of 10e is complete and utter crap? Do people not understand that 18hp per sec heal is pathetic and can't save a fly from the wind? /face palm